Open plan kitchen in 3-storey townhouse

8 years ago

I admit it - I'm stumped. We wanted to open up the majority of the lower floor of our house to become a light airy kitchen diner. All well and good until I learnt about the complications of UK fire regulations in a 3 storey house. As I understand it, I need either a separate exit route (i.e. kitchen not open to the stairs) or sprinklers plus a door between first and second floor (I really don't want a door to the stairwell).

Clearly you guys are great at coming up with ideas - I've got two questions. Firstly (and most unlikely), is there any ingenious work-around to these regulations that would enable us to do what we want. Secondly, if we do have to box off the stairwell, how would you lay out the kitchen?

We really fancy an island, to integrate guests to the cooking/preparing area. This could probably go in either direction, but we like a plan that enables me to look at the garden whilst preparing food. We're definitely putting in a window on the right hand wall to aid the light situation, though can be flexible on where.

Current layout below, plus a very rough idea that I've mocked up quickly. I've also considered the island 90 degrees rotated as well, so we could look out at the garden as things are prepared.

You can probably gauge size based on the units, but the long vertical wall is 5.3m, and the short horizontal one 2.5m.

Any advice gratefully received!!

Featured Answer

bookworm987

8 years ago

I think your layout is a good use of the space.I'd make 2 adjustments if it was me though. Firstly, I wouldn't remove the wall separating the utility - I know my utility tends to get quite messy with laundry, recycling, sports gear etc and I'd hate to be looking at that while I eat! Also, it would limit you on when you could run the washing machine, noisewise - ours runs most of the day Saturday so I'd hate to have it in the kitchen/diner. If you really need that extra space for your dining table, could you just move the wall back a bit?

Secondly, you mentioned rotating the island 90 degrees. I'd go a step further and actually have a u-shaped kitchen, with the side facing the dining room having an extra width worktop, with an overhang for stools. We had this setup in our previous house and it worked really well - it achieved that feeling of having the two areas integrated, and also being able to look out at the garden while preparing food, but was a better use of space than a separate island would have been. You could even consider a split-level worktop, with the overhang being higher, to achieve a bar effect.

Is the cupboard under the stairs going to become a walk-in larder? That would be great!

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Comments (23)

Andrew Mudge
8 years ago
Paint the stairs in intumescent paint ? I only thought the rules came into effect if you added a storey onto a 3 storey already (like a loft room) otherwise would an egress window on the first floors and above satisfy ?
danpollard thanked Andrew Mudge
danpollard
Original Author
8 years ago
I think it's more to do with what happens when I get to the bottom of the stairs than the stairs themselves (though thanks for introducing me to a new word of the day!). Based on what I've read, an egress window wouldn't cut it, but I can certainly ask the question.

I've been stalling asking Building Control, as I feel that I'd be better going in with a solution, otherwise I fear I'll simply be told what I should do, which I think will include putting a door on the stairs!
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Lisa Mmm
8 years ago
It's the same here in Ireland and unfortunately there is no work around, at least not here anyway. For 3 stories or more you are required to compartmentalise the stairs with 60 mins fire protection so it forms a protected escape route in the event of a fire. I know it's a pain in this type of situation but it could save your life someday.
danpollard
Original Author
8 years ago
I thought as much - just thought I'd ask in case anyone had clever ideas. I'm wondering what kind of clever doors I could get, such that they could be left open (or generally be glass) through the day, and closed at night. The problem is it eats into the space I plan to have the island.

Assuming I am stuck with boxing it off, any alternative ideas (or votes for) the layout?
danpollard
Original Author
8 years ago
Thanks for the ideas! I think I have to remove the utility wall - we currently have our table end on in the existing kitchen, and that's already cosy and what we're trying to get away from. Also, opening this up improves the view over the garden. We have considered that though, which is what the under-stairs cupboard is going to be used for - the washing machine fits perfectly under the low bit of the stairs, leaving us the tall bit of the cupboard still.

The U-shaped kitchen is a good idea. I wonder if it might feel like a maze weaving from the back door past the table to the kitchen though?
danpollard
Original Author
8 years ago
Does anyone think there could be scope to get away with 2 sets of concertina doors like these, to let the light through and allow the space to be opened up at times, whilst giving fire protection as required.

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Oxford-Internal-Bi-fold-Door-Oak-Veneer-Glazed-1981x762mm/p/218426

If not, any help on the layout assuming I've got to go with the latter plan? Keep the island as is, or rotate, or something more radical?
iamtashy
7 years ago
I have the same issue - currently renovating a 2 storey terrace, converting the loft making it 3 storeys. Then opening up the entire ground floor. I've been told that the alternative options are an automist system or a fire curtain. Both seem pretty heavy duty but at least mean that we don't have to have any doors! I think automist might be the way forward but its not cheap (cheaper than sprinklers i believe) http://www.plumis.co.uk/automist.html. I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has any solutions! good luck :-)
danpollard
Original Author
7 years ago
This is exactly what we're gong to do (a year and several alternative ideas later). Shop around - I've had very different quotes for installation.
iamtashy
7 years ago
Thanks dan - sorry didn't notice it was an old post! Shopping around now!!
danpollard
Original Author
7 years ago
That wasn't meant as a complaint of how old this is, more frustration at how we've ended up at the same point in our project a year later! I've had quotes for £3600 and £2400 fitted so far in an 8x5m room.
PRO
The Myers Touch
7 years ago
I think you plan is very good. It uses a lot of dead space in the hallway. The utility can be covered with a door system to hide the mess and reduce noise. A more dramatic kitchen design would help. Thx.
daniellesmith997
7 years ago
When using the automist option have you been advised to still use a fire door between ground and first floor to protect the stairs ? We are in a 3 storey house, we want to knock the doorway out of our kitchen so it's basically kitchen and hall , however stairs are open and we are getting stumped with what to do
daniellesmith997
7 years ago
daniellesmith997
7 years ago
It is about 1.6 metres , we are having sliding doors along the back of the house so when we walk in we wanted a straight sight line through but that little wall is becoming a nightmare
danpollard
Original Author
7 years ago
It sounds like it varies by council. Where we are, they've not mentioned needing a door as well, but I've seen other stories online that have said they have been asked and needed to get a fire engineer to argue their case.

In our case they're not asking for a door but for a linked smoke alarm in every habitable room. I don't fully agree with the logic, but for the relative cost it's probably not worth arguing!

Looming at your layout, it seems very similar in the end result to what we're doing so imagine toy can achieve a similar result.
daniellesmith997
7 years ago
daniellesmith997
7 years ago
We have been looking at these as another option but means taking down the load bearing wall , fitting the rsj and then having to put a small wall back up as we can't get them wide enough .. Who have you spoken to in relation to the regs ? Have you managed to get someone to come and look at the work you want to do and been given advice ?
danpollard
Original Author
7 years ago
We spoke to some architects for free at the Homebuilding show who also said we "should" be fine without, but more importantly I had an informal chat with building control for my area. I sent them my proposal and talked them through it to ask if it were likely to be approved, before I spent any money being structural calculations done. Although I think their logic was a trad flawed, ultimately it's them who will have to approve it.
obobble
7 years ago
I personally do not favour having stairs leading from kitchens. No matter how good your extraction system it is still likely to end up with cooking smells permeating upstairs, and so for me it is an absolute no no.
lewis_at_home
3 years ago
I am intrigued to know what you did with this and how you overcome? I am in the same situation now?
danpollard
Original Author
3 years ago
Sadly we concluded that the quotes we got (~£30k upwards) didn't warrant the benefit, and we've since moved house - albeit for different reasons.

The closest we got was to continue the stairs straight to where the WC was and create a little hallway for the end of the stairs and the front door to open into, thereby not having the kitchen open to the stairs any more. This also gave us the ability to have slightly more space in the kitchen as well, so changed to units down the RH side, with an island where it is in this picture, and then add glass or pocket doors into the front room, to allow it to be used as a playroom.

I hope that helps you somehow!
cfmatthew
last year
Hi Dan, was the only reason you didn't go ahead due to cost? Wanting to do a similar layout with three storey open plan but having the same issue as daniellesmith997. Had a report from a fire engineer and they are saying misting system alone isnt adequate. They're wanting us to separate GF from 1F which we want to avoid if possible!

Open plan kitchen in 3-storey townhouse

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