Offer accepted! 1898 Semi detached needing total renovation - help! :)

Comments (37)

minipie
5 years ago
What a pretty house. I have no idea of West yorkshire costs but I would recommend you go for another viewing with an experienced local builder or architect in tow (someone who's done plenty of big refurbs) so they can give an indication of what can and can't be done and what it would cost. (then add about 20% as there is always extra!)
Patrina
5 years ago
Wow what an exciting project and a beautiful house. I have no clue what renovation on a property like this would cost but there is a great example on here of a renovation well done by Resh. I think you could get some great ideas from his project. As always there is always great advice from some very talented houzzers and pros on here. Good luck with your renovation, looking forward to seeing the results.
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Hi Everyone, I hope you are doing well wherever you are but I bet everyone's busy at this time of the year. I have been a busy bee myself and learned how to use Homestyler but I must say it's a painful and slow process. I have been obsessed with the floor plan of the small flat for the past week as the time has come to finalize it with the new team. We'll be around 2 months behind the plan which is fine. So I made the decision to not have a loft in the small flat because the floorplan I chose seems to work well with loads of storage. Please excuse some of the furniture such as the kitchen and the colour of the large cabinet, they will be white but Homestyler is quite limited so I had to chose from whatever they had in store. Let me know what you think of the floor plan please. I'm happy with it so far. I'll send you links to short panoramic videos Honestlyler created which was a godsend as that'd exactly what I wanted to see, at least approximately how my flat would look like. I really wanted visualise what to expect. The videos are pretty much the same but starting from different angles of the 30sqm flat. Entrance: https://hspano.homestyler.com?m=p&id=twsxPMyMR32r148hAj4AEj Kitchen with closed crittal door: https://hspano.homestyler.com?m=p&id=j6XZ8RxpunFXsWs6B4wWCY Living room with closed crittal door. https://hspano.homestyler.com?m=p&id=qET2nhmJqjuirhSjHjrga6 Bedroom with thc crittal.door opened: https://hspano.homestyler.com?m=p&id=isx9qoEcNs6bh5h4inQeVo Bathroom: https://hspano.homestyler.com?m=p&id=eQMHPghXhakFJKP5xXDApb
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The door thing is interesting. At least I think so! Maybe you would like to know why doors are hung the way they are? Traditionally in the UK doors are hung so they open with the leaf going into the room. This does two things. Firstly it makes the room a bit more private. So if you're doing something in the room and someone else comes in then they don't see immediately what you're up to, but you have a bit of notice that they are coming in before they see you. This means you can quickly hide anything that you don't want to be revealed to the other person. This is more of a thing if you have staff and then you want to maintain some level of privacy from them. Secondly it helps with draughts. Older houses are especially leaky and you can feel the movement of air. That air movement has a kind of internal wind chill factor. When you have the doors opening into the room then it slows down the flow of air, because it has to go around the door instead of straight in, so you can reduce that air movement a bit. In warmer countries, like Spain, where they want to keep doors open and out of the way so they can maximise air movement to cool the space down, then traditionally they have the doors opening against the wall. This way they can keep them held open more easily and have more air flow. In more modern or upgraded homes the draughts are not so much of an issue, and most of us don't have house staff that we want to keep things private from. So it can make sense to have the doors rehung. It's worth knowing the reasons behind the way they're hung, so you can be more selective. Perhaps in some rooms you would like to maintain that privacy, perhaps in a bathroom, and then you could hang the door in a way that works best. It's a lot easier to get furniture in and out when you hang the door to open against the wall. Hope that's interesting for you!!
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Hello and thanks for your prompt reply. The drawings provided show that the support beams are 203mm depth and therefore they will be too big to sit inside the ceiling void. As the weight per linear m is 23Kg as detailed on the drawings it may be worth asking the engineer to reduce the depth and and increase the weight so the beam can be inserted into the ceiling void. I note that there is also a couple of posts in the stud wall and these could be upgraded if necessary. I do not make these suggestions lightly. The main benefit of inserting the beam inside the ceiling is the removal of the shadow cast on the ceiling. The return nibs on either end could be cut back and if needed posts could be fixed direct to the brickwork to provide vertical support. There may need to be a spreader plate welded to the bottom of the post in order to mitigate the point load on the foundation. Obviously this is more of a structural design issue. Is there a good reason for not centring the bifold doors to the external wall? You have so much height on the flat roof why not put a warm deck roof on instead of a cold deck with in cross ventilation? Can I also suggest a warm pitched roof too. You may find Web Dynamics TLX Goldto be a very useful form of insulation as you will only need about 75mm of PIR insulation in between the rafters. I've never been fortunate enough to meet a building control officer willing to accept a heavy duty Catnic lintel over a 4M bifold door. I thought the under stairs might be the position of the meters. I would consider relocating these to an outside wall. Then turn the WC through 90 degrees and design it under the stairs. If I was planning a kitchen diner extension with a beautiful bi-fold door looking out into the rear garden would try and create a direct flow from front of house to the back. I would move the utility room into the middle of the house to provide a direct line of sight from the front door to the rear garden. GD3 would provide access into the utility room. I'd consider moving the door along the living room wall so it could open into the hallway. This would allow a 950mm wide fully glazed door to be placed between the hallway and the kitchen diner. With regard to the position of the new extension wall which is adjacent to your adjoining neighbour I suggest that you look up the party wall act 1996 booklet online here - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/523010/Party_Wall_etc__Act_1996_-_Explanatory_Booklet.pdf The part that is of interest is "Line of junction - building astride the boundary". If you build across the boundary you should gain at least 150mm of additional internal floor space along the length of the outside wall. Also if in the future your neighbour decides to build an extension they can utilise your wall for if they pay half of the cost of its construction. I'm sure you know that you are responsible for paying all of the costs from all sides relating to the party wall agreement. If the neighbour on the other side is within 3/6m then you will need an agreement with them as well. The architects drawing indicates that the drain is not adopted or shared and therefore you will not require a build over agreement with the water authority. Best wishes Andrew
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Please Help... Needing redesign ideas.
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Comments (19)
So much potential. I'm not sure if that question was for me, but I would demolish the lean to, at least partially. It might be possible to save the supports to create an open structure-hard to see from the photos. I would enlarge the French windows from the drawing room. "Too much work" is subjective. Different people have different tolerance to disruption but, as you say, the layout isn't really functional for you at the moment. It's certainly less work and expense than extending. The problem of supporting walls crops up all the time. When you're looking at a project of this size, the cost of getting a structural engineer in to do the calculations and then have the necessary steel put in place is pretty marginal. The Building Control officer will then come and sign it off, as you probably know.
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tamp75
5 years ago
Hi, when you say total renovation, are you talking structurally or decoratively? E.g, does the roof need replacing? Presumably re-wiring throughout will need to be done? And plumbing for heating would prob be easier to start afresh even though the boiler isn’t ancient. Presumably, you’re looking at the kitchen being within the footprint of the original house & not extending as that would prob go beyond budget? Obv you’ll know more after the full survey but some photos of the inside would be useful. Also, are you planning on doing any of the work yourselves?
Pugster 2018 thanked tamp75
A S
5 years ago
Hello - also from Yorkshire!

What a stunning property! I think it would depend on the extent of renovation/extension. £120k is a good budget but I'd expect costs to exceed, especially in older properties and as there's no heating on the upper floor.

I've also found a great variation in quotes provided by trades persons: some quote very cheap prices which can seem very attractive but the quality of workmanship isn't too great whilst others strike a good balance between cost and quality.

Wishing you all the very best with your project :-)
Pugster 2018 thanked A S
Pugster 2018
Original Author
5 years ago
Jonathan that's a fab layout! I love the downstairs idea...however the loft conversion has to be a definite. It has been my husbands only request to have his office in the loft. He works from home :)

You're right about the staircase, I'm not sure where the best place for it would be!

I have a video of the loft..here is the link! https://youtu.be/IVC4uFZpS14

tamp75, I am pretty sure that structurally it is sound. The roof will need some minor repair work but has been maintained well. The original sash windows have all been draught proofed and double glazed and look in good condition.

It has been re-wired within the last 10 years but we will find out more after the survey.

Ideally for the kitchen we would do a small extension on the other side of the house to where it is now and make the current kitchen the utility room.

Here are some pics from inside...
Pugster 2018
Original Author
5 years ago
Oh and tamp75 there will be some things we can do ourselves but I should think more along the cosmetic/decorative areas. Our main problem is the children and not having anyone to look after them other than ourselves so we don't get much done! :)
Pugster 2018
Original Author
5 years ago
Thanks Asifa :)
Jonathan
5 years ago
Why not offer him this room so you can have the great extension?
Pugster 2018
Original Author
5 years ago
It's honestly just non negotiable, the loft conversion has to happen! :)

I also don't really think we need another living area downstairs, I'd be very happy with kitchen/diner without the living bit as there are 2 other reception rooms..
Heather
5 years ago
What a gorgeous house! We are in Leeds and planning a 30sqm double storey extension & loft conversion (albeit a roof raise loft conversion so slightly more complicated), and we have been pretty astonished (and dismayed) at the prices quoted by builders! Our house is detached and quite a bit smaller and was built in the 50’s so not as old as yours (not that lovely Yorkshire stone!) and the majority of our quotes have been just over what your budget is so it gives you a rough idea of prices. I have no idea what sort of costs you would encounter in terms of renovating an old house (as ours doesn’t require much renovating as such, just adding new bits on and a new lick of paint) but if you are thinking of extending then this will be more costly. Looking forward to seeing what you do with it!
Pugster 2018
Original Author
5 years ago
Thanks so much Heather, that's good to know. We did some building work on our old house in Surrey (single storey rear extension), so I have some idea but was hoping that prices would be a little cheaper than Surrey! :)

I have started to think maybe we could knock through that big front living room to create a big kitchen/diner/living area which would then mean we didn't have to extend out. Hmm so much to think about!

I will definitely keep this updated. Maybe I'l start a new thread to document it all.

Exciting!
Jonathan
5 years ago
As a first step you need to work out how much head height you will have when the roof is further insulated and plaster boarded and the floor has been strengthened (going to loose 200-300mm). If it is not going to be above 7’2” (2.2m) I suspect future buyers won’t see it as a habitable room (although I don’t believe there is a regulation for this). But if may not recoups money spent on the conversion you may want to reconsider.
tamp75
5 years ago
Hi, it’s a beautiful house, or at least will be once you’ve finished changing some of the current design! ;-)
If the loft conversion is your main area to work on, budget-wise I’d def look at having the new kitchen within the current space. Conversion costs plus new stair case will take up a fairly significant proportion of the budget. I would have thought knocking through from where it currently is to the dining room & having a kitchen diner without the living space would be your best option. However, an architect could, and should, come up with other ideas. Personally, I wouldn’t keep the current kitchen as a utility as it’s quite large for a utility that isn’t right next to the kitchen. It could be used as a laundry but I’d find it annoying to have it as extra food storage & having to traipse to & from the kitchen.
Good news that there has been recent rewiring. Our renovation needed full rewiring & replumbing (inc into loft conversion) that took up around £35k of our budget. Fingers crossed windows & roof are also ok on the survey!
It looks like a very exciting project - would love to see it as you progress!
Carolina
5 years ago
Gorgeous house. Having read the ‘loft conversion is a must’ discussion and all the against arguments and the only pro argument being ‘husband wants it’, I’m wondering if husband could be persuaded to have a fantastic office in the workshop?

Looking forward to seeing what you’ll do with this property. Good luck!
PRO
User
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Love that attic..................I think you have a sensible budget, don't get rid of the 6 year old boiler without talking to a plumber as that'll add another 2-3k to the need pile. Just stick to absolutely necessary.......add that up and then start with would like........add that up, see where you are and if you've got money to spare then splash that out on your type of finish.

Re the loft, a builder will do, but a structural engineer would be better.

You could be in for a big plastering bill if it's lime, you start knocking that and it falls off in chunks, requiring a full re-plaster, same with ceilings. This will come in to play if you chase the heating pipes in to the walls, which will look more aesthetically pleasing.

We did a 3 storey house of about the same age, took all the walls back to bare, moved walls, added an extension and a dormer on the 3rd floor, heating and water upstairs where there was none, 2 new bathrooms, a new kitchen etc, so very similar. The cost for that was £85,000 and we did all our own labour. So, these houses eat money for breakfast. . One thing i did pay for was the plastering which was £12k ( 5 years ago ). That came out of the £85k. The re-furb took 9 months, so if you add in 9 months of labour costs, say around £45k, the total bill would have been £130,000, so you'll see that your budget will actually still be tight.

Have you got any pics of the inside? It sounds very exciting.
Jo
5 years ago
Beautiful house, it will be fabulous when done. Just a word of caution from someone who grew up in a loft bedroom, lofts can be boiling in the summer and freezing in the winter, not the nicest place to work from in my opinion, I’d go for comfort over views.
Alix W
5 years ago
Beautiful house! You’re fuelling my ‘let’s move to Yorkshire’ fantasies..
I think your budget will be ok but I would look to stick within the footprint of the house. You actually have loads of space and spending your money getting that looking and feeling amazing will be better than spreading yourself too thin, I think. Lots of people seem to build big family room extensions and then don’t use any of the original rooms. I would think about knocking through the kitchen diner, it would make a fab space. Then you have two living rooms, and one could double as a guest room.
PRO
Ikonografik Design
5 years ago
I think £120k is a bit light. You need to factor in VAT and professional fees. If you are using quality companies I expect VAT and professional fees to be in the region of £25-30k so this means a construction budget of about £90-95k.

Are you considering energy efficiency upgrades too? Assuming you have solid walls you should use vapour permeable / breathable insulation like Pavatex. Not rigid board insulation like Kingspan, Celotex, Xtratherm etc.

If you are a busy family suggest you employ a qualified architect or architectural technologist to design and project manage with builders for you. This should save you time, hassle and money.

Hope the project goes well.
PRO
OnePlan
5 years ago
Wow !!!

Nice work Jonathan!

Looks a fab house with so much character and potential !
LTS
5 years ago
I’m originally from West Yorkshire but live down south now. That looks a lovely house, very typical of my home town - do you have a builder(s) in mind?
T Gray
5 years ago
Wow, that is lovely! You have some gorgeous original plasterwork and features in there, looking forward to your renovation thread!
PRO
Fresh Start Living
5 years ago
What a fantastic house, so much potential! We're in the process of fully renovating our detached house in Leeds (we've done a loft conversion, rear extension and converted our basement all with a 4 and 1 year old in tow!) but we've also got a business helping people to plan and design their home renovations. We'd love to come and take a look and for you to talk us through your design brief. We offer free consultations so just let us know if you'd like us to come over for a chat, here's a link to our site and case studies Fresh Start Living
PRO
Brandler London
4 years ago
I too think that your budget is light and, at the risk of stating the obvious, you need to prioritise the works.

I have carried out a lot of residential build, fit out and refurbishment projects over the years and my advice would be the following:-

1. Start with the essentials - heating, electrics and plumbing. You can run pipework underneath the floorboards, or cut into the walls, and there are modern systems which reduce the risk of leaking dramatically.

2. The Kitchen is your next priority and if an extension is required then budget this into your cost. Don't forget to produce, or have produced for you, a detailed specification so that you can make sure that you have included everything including appliances, light fittings, etc.

3. The Bathrooms and Toilets have to be the next priority

4. The decoration of the house would be the next essential in my opinion, however this may be something that you can do yourself. Get your surveyor to carefully check the existing plaster and if you are lucky then you will only need minor works. Builders often tend to hack the plaster when breaking through new openings for doors, etc. or chasing for cables, pipework, etc. This is because they are being lazy and work on the basis that they can slap on an extra charge to replaster the room or wall. A multicutter can be used to carry out the chasing neatly and this will remove the need for major plastering.

5. Flooring has to be your next priority and the parquet flooring may well be old but is probably of a good quality. If it is to your taste then have it sanded down and re-finished with a modern lacquer that is hard wearing. Do not save money on lacquers as it is a false economy. You could also add colour if you wished or paint finishes with a final lacquer coat.

If you are carpeting then always use an underlay. This increases the life and look of the carpet, however do not use a cheap one and I suggest a commercial 6.5mm or 10mm from a manufacturer such as Duralay manufactured by Interfloor but available from multiple outlets such as Screwfix for example ( https://www.interfloor.com ). For the carpet, if you can afford it, always use a 80/20 (80% wool/20% nylon). You can find some good deals on these carpets but AVOID the traditional method of installation, i.e. with grippers around the perimeter of the room. The modern method is to directly stick the carpet to the underlay which then just lays on top of the sub-floor. The weight of the carpet and underlay holds it in place and the upside is that you can lift it easily if you ever need to access the underfloor should you have a leak or need to install additional cabling/pipework. You can find fitters who install this way but they may be commercial installers as this is the method used for hotels, etc.

You may also find a fitter that can get you a good trade price for an 80/20 carpet with a small margin for themselves on the basis that you pay directly to the supplier. Again have a look at commercial manufacturers as you may get a better deal from them than the big carpet retailers.

6. Curtains may well also be your next priority and this can eat into your budget far more than you may think for a property of this nature.

7. The Loft conversion is not an essential at this time however it would be sensible to have the preparation works carried out to start with. By this I mean extending the staircase into the loft and installing a door, but not fitting out the area until you have the budget to do so. If there is any budget left over then you can carry out some, or all, of the works but starting with the insulation to the roof frames and then plasterboarding. Make sure that your builder uses a water resistant plasterboard, which is green, and make sure that the first fix electrics and plumbing are carried out. By this I mean that the cabling and pipework is installed but not connected.

8. Make sure that when you budget you also allow for the garden and a healthy percentage for unforseen costs. This should be at least 10%.

9. Buy as many of the materials yourself. You could arrange with your builder that he opens an account at a local builders merchant for you and you can make direct payments. You may also find that place like B&Q have cheaper prices for the same materials so make sure that you double check this as there can be substantial differences. The labour costs might be a little higher if you supply most of the materials, however you have the peace of mind knowing that the materials have been paid for.

10. Be careful with the consultants that you employ especially as your budget is tight. Consider making planning applications yourself as the council departments concerned are generally very helpful in this process, including the building inspectors. You do not have a big enough budget to have your architect manage the project for example and don't forget that for an extension the building inspectors will be making sure that correct procedures are followed.

Consider using multiple specialists, i.e. one for your kitchen, one for the bathrooms, one for the loft conversion and one for your extension. When you factor in VAT on you budget you only have 100k to play with and there is a lot of work that you need to do.

You may find that your designers/architects can get deeper discounts for materials than you can and this can help offset their fees but make sure that you check all supply options.

11. Prepare detailed specifications, or have them prepared for you, to ensure that the buildings, electricians, plumbers, etc., cannot hit you with costs that they had "forgotten" to allow for. The problem these days is that they will give you a single price, which might be broken down a few times, but certainly nothing like you will find in the commercial world where every item is costed.

This specification should then be tied to a contract (consider JCT minor works which you can find online) . This specification, tied to the contract, will save you a world of pain as it dramatically reduces the additional charges. Do not pay your builder/tradesmen cash and if you have to then make sure that you get a detailed receipt or invoice.

12. Go onto ebay, or similar, to have a look for materials. Sometimes you will find that a commercial project has an excess of materials that are no longer needed and these can be bought for a fraction of their original price. I recently bought a load of marble and travertine from a hotel project which was then used for the bathrooms of a property I recently renovated and it cost me less than 15% of the original trade cost!

13. Make sure that you use quality materials and equipment/fittings. This is obvious but the temptation can be hard to resist and if this is your "life" property, then you do not want to have to redo works in the future.

14. Make sure that you programme your works carefully. Electricians and plumbers are notorious for paying no attention at all to finishes and often cause damage. You should make sure that their first fixes are installed at as early a stage as possible. Also make sure that you tell them, or put it in their contract, that any damage that they cause, including to equipment and other installations, is to be paid for by them

15. Negotiate the prices you receive wherever possible. You may not get a reduction in price but they may well throw in a freebie or two.

16. Keep all receipts and all designs/specification as well as warranties and building inspector reports/planning approvals as you may well need this when you come to sell the property in the future.

You have a lovely house there and I wish you the best of luck and hope that no unforeseen problems arise!
Tani H-S
4 years ago
Just for costing ideas... we are in the N West and got the cheapest builder (no vat) and didn't have anything too expensive but in our small 30's semi bungalow, it cost us £20k just to re-roof the loft room (which is pre-existing and not an actual conversion!) and put an en-suite in and 2 velux windows. Also overboard all the old plaster walls and insulate. My parents did a big loft conversion on their bungalow (2 bedrooms, one small bathroom and hallway walk-in-wardrobes) and that cost just under £40k but that was cheap and they didn't pay VAT. I got a quote on a similar size house and loft conversion was £60k but it was a large one so it really depends on the size of your loft.

I would get a loft conversion expert in (rather than just a general builder) for a proper price on just the loft if that is a must. You might get it done cheaper then but at least you will have a true idea.

So far we have spent another £70k on just a single extension with new kitchen (£15k kitchen all in) and all the basic electrics, new plumbing in the house, plastering and new floor joists ) and we haven't even finished yet. Money does not go a long way and we have done quite a bit of the labour and decorating to save money as well. Scary. LOL.

Your house looks amazing and I agree with others that if you plan on staying there a long time, then get the most important things done first.
E D
4 years ago
Older post...
PRO
Brandler London
4 years ago
lol... it was on the side of the site so I assumed that it was live... you live and learn! :-)
E D
4 years ago
Well at least you kept your post short and sweet... :-)
Tani H-S
4 years ago
Damn it - it got time there @ED
Tani H-S
4 years ago
Urgh. Meant to say it got ‘me’ there (autocorrect!!) is being an old post (rolls eyes)
PRO
User
4 years ago
Thats a big enough challenge, If you need any assistance with lighting you can always give us a email and i will work with you to assist you with the best prices :) Hope all goes well!

Tony
Sam Potter
4 years ago
Brandler London you might be too late with your advice for the original poster, but that's one of the most useful posts I've ever read on Houzz, so thank you!
PRO
Brandler London
4 years ago
@ Sam Potter - You are most welcome and thank you!
Anthony (Beano)
4 years ago
Agree with Sam, epic post!
E D
4 years ago
And Tony’s jumping on the bandwagon...

:-)
Sam Potter
4 years ago
Brandler London,I reckon you should start a discussion 'dilemma' which is actually a thinly disguised advert for your services. Don't worry, everyone does it, but you've actually earned it.
Sam Potter
4 years ago
Also your stuff looks like what my DIY would look like if I had any carpentry skills...

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Offer accepted! 1898 Semi detached needing total renovation - help! :)

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