Renovation of London Victorian terrace - need creative layout advice:)
So we went crazy a few years ago and persuaded the bank to lend us the funds for this enormous family house a few years ago. It's crying out for a better layout. With three kids and not much time, we have managed to tackle a few areas, one at a time. Some were exciting, namely the garden and the new garden sliding doors and the front room with the fitting of 200 year old restored French parquet and a woodburner (photos to follow); and some were not so exciting but essential nevertheless, the windows (now toughened glass, double glazed sashes), the shutters with proper blackout blinds in the main bedroom, the loft (boarded and insulated), the boiler and well that's it for now.
Before photo
We've hired an architect to help with the layout and two years later have just about settled on a design. Our first proposal was not achievable with the budget we have, so we went back to the drawing board and have almost settled on a layout.
The main things we hope to achieve in the plans we've managed, but I am still not convinced. We have put the laundry on the first floor and created a tiny ensuite for the guest bedroom up there. Whilst that is a sacrifice, I can see the logic. The house has four floors and I'm forever wrestling laundry up and down the stairs. What I still hope for however, is a utility room on the ground floor. A place where I can dump the kids' muddy shoes, keep the mop and hoover, have a large sink and store sports equipment. We have a lot of 'stuff' that I'd like out of the way.
I'd also like a pantry type area in the kitchen but think I'm pushing my luck with that!
We've removed the stairs down to the basement from the hallway to create a small bike store, and we've created a cloak room that will be for coats and shoes. It has to be quite smart as we will walk through it to use the bathroom. We did consider having the door to open the other way but felt the loo needed to feel more separate.
We also decided to install doors (possibly Crittal but I'm dreaming about period glass doors) between the living room and the library to stop the library feeling like a corridor and also keep the kids/noise out of the living room:) Having lived here, we've realised that open-plan living needs a lot more thought.
I'd love some feedback on this plan. Apologies for the long post, this is my first!
Comments (36)
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Victorian Renovation + Rear Extension in London
Comments (5)That makes two of us (we're newish to Houzz!) Congratulations on your purchase, it looks like a handsome property. It also looks like you are using a property professional for your proposed work, we assume you've put the question to them and want another opinion? Either way, and whatever your brief for how to use the space, it is important that new spaces have character, and aren't simply caverns. The extension does look large compared to the original house, so how it is inhabited is vital to the success of your work (and for adding any value to the property should you sell). For an 'empty' plan, the lanterns might be right, but once you locate your kitchen, snug, or dining area, they may be better repositioned. The position, style and statement of the kitchen is quite a personal thing, but depends on how the flow of the rest of the house will work. Noise and smells from cooking are worth considering for the rest of the house's benefit, so perhaps starting with locating the kitchen to the bottom of you plan might make sense, unless you want a real statement, eye catching arrangement, in which case it might be better located on the axis to the top of the plan (on the long view through your rooms). Some owners like to have a dining area next to their new glazing, but with the bi-fold doors shown opening inwards, this will compromise the internal layouts immediately next to (perhaps this is the wrong symbol your professional has used for the doors and they are intended to open outwards - we would never have them opening inwards - due to the compromise noted above and water dripping internally). Without know more about budget, orientation and period of house it is difficult to offer further helpful advice, but if you would like to discuss further feel free to contact us for a free consultation at hello@catterallfranklin.com Good luck either way!...See MoreVictorian flat kitchen renovation on a budget- advice in London
Comments (31)Good news that a builder is coming over. I suspect all the green walls I have drawn are originals and can’t be changed without permission- you can probably tell by their thickness relative to thinner partition walls but it would be good to check. As Bobby said you need to know where the buildings soil pipes are because this will dictate where you can put a wc. There may however be more than one- I suspect your wc pipes go under the kitchen and exit near the kitchen window. 1- get the builder to tell you if there is any extra bit to the left of your kitchen window that has been hidden behind boxing- extra square footage is nearly always useful. Are there original doorways (2 & 3) that could be reinstated- look for telltale signs in the skirting board, flooring, hollow walls where an opening has just been boarded over, door shaped cracks in the decorating etc....See MoreRenovation and extension of Victorian terrace - need creative advice:)
Comments (10)Do you need to keep a downstairs bathroom, or are you happy to have only the en suite until the loft is done? (bearing in mind this may put buyers off if you end up selling before you do the loft). If you do then I agree with SpaceMaker’s idea of moving the bathroom to the dining room area if soil pipe allows. Or if soil pipe does not allow (eg if soil pipe runs back through the garden rather than under the house) then at least move the shower and sink, so as to leave only the loo carved off the kitchen. The dining room could divide into a bathroom and utility on the left hand side (using the under stairs space as well) and then a corridor through to the kitchen on the right. If you decide you don’t need the downstairs bathroom then you could have the same sort of division but make it a utility and study space. You will free up quite a lot of space if you take out the chimneybreasts - in your shoes and budget allowing I would keep the one at the front so you can have a nice fireplace/woodburner as a lounge focal point, but then take out the others. Certainly a side return extension, with glassed over side roof and glazed doors to the garden at the end, would have a big impact on the size and feel. Rooflights are cheaper than a full glass roof and have the benefit of being openable for ventilation in the summer....See MoreSide infill for a kitchen in a small Victorian terrace house- ideas?
Comments (8)Before you do anything else have a chat with your local planners. ( A word with the duty officer will usually do ) if you are in a terrace then you need to check where next door's window to the dining room is located. Most likely exactly as your window. Then check with the planners how they are applying the 45 degree rule which is a line striking out from the midpoint, or third point , from the window to a habitable room. If your extension goes passed this line, and potentially blocks the view of your neighbour then you have a problem. Often you are ok on the ground floor ( depending how the local planners follow the guidance - hence the need to check first) . Many acknowledge that we need more living space but they will be then be difficult on any first floor extension. For peace of mind check first . This happened in one we are monitoring in Brighton for instance. Then you can enjoy working on that extra space - Good luck....See More
Jonathan
5 years agoI think the layout works really well. I like the library as I feel it is just an extension of the living room and I don’t feel you need a dining table there when you have such a large one next to the kitchen.
Personally I think the upstairs laundry is convenient but understand the need to hide stuff on the ground floor. Perhaps having the wc and basin near the hall door with the dressing area beyond this in a separate space would help keep the cloakroom better presented for guests.
As far as pantry goes I think a walk in pantry would compromise the floor plan but there are some great pantry solutions available from kitchen furniture suppliers and you should be talking to your kitchen designer about this.
diva636 thanked Jonathandiva636
5 years agoWow, thank you everyone for your comments. I'm not sure how to reply individually but I'll try to address some of the points above. I'll also take a pic of the lower ground floor plan and get a photo of the living room as it currently is.
The library isn't really a library. We currently use it as a study area and don't have a definitive idea of how to use it. We don't want it to be a cut through or a dining room. Jonathon I agree that the kitchen is large enough to have a dining area. Here's an old pic:
The kitchen is cavernous and cold (underfloor heating was broken when we had the sliding doors to the garden installed, but that's a whole other story) and so extending doesn't appeal.
I thought maybe the 'library' could be a cosier retiring room. There will be a sliding door that will sit along the glass wall of the new staircase that we can draw across, although that doesn't sound very 'cosy'. Not sure if that's the best plan but agree with you minipie that we need the option to close it off. The kids could do their homework in there, and my husband could have a poker night.. he'd like a round table slap bang in the middle.
Jonathon, my husband mocked up a plan which I think is similar to the one you suggest. I like the flow of this better; it compromises the dressing area but leaves the 'library' as a better space:
Minipie, that is super interesting your advice about the double doors and the sofa.. hadn't thought of that but it was niggling me. We spend all our evenings in here by the fire so want to get it right!
Karen thank you so much for the offer, I will definitely give you a buzz.
Thanks everyone:)
E D
5 years agodiva636
5 years agoThanks for your time and advice Karen at OnePlan, super helpful.
Here's the lower ground floor proposal:
Ignore the bit about the pull down bed.
The idea here is to have another sliding door to keep the noise from travelling upstairs.
The outside steps down to the basement are pretty steep, so we rarely use this entrance. I suspect the kids will try and sneak out that way when they're teenagers;)
Jonathan
5 years agomike_corp
5 years agoWe are renovating house similar to yours. We had almost exact same layout, but due to planning "funny people" we are building extension into L shape.
Anyway, In previous layout I had kitchen and pantry. I designed it in a way, if pantry opens (sliding door) it will become part of the kitchen.
I would ditch the kitchen bar. I know it was sort of hype, but if you remove it and move entire island towards middle you gain space for 2 people. Example> If you open dishwasher (60cm door) then 30cm is not enough to pass. So you cook and somebody will want to empty dishwasher you have a problem. cabinets are usually 60cm but get yourself 67- 70cm worktop. Check Schmidt kitchen for latest measurements. Make the island smaller so on each side is 1m to 1.20m.
Green for pantry
I wanted to have a sink in the pantry too. (I'm also not that fond of tripple ovens and coffee machines in a row) I go with Neff Oven +steam)
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this is the new design:moving pantry and laundry together (YELLOW). keeping the toilet where it was (black gold wallpaper) and cca 1.4m area as wardrobe in hallway.
diva636 thanked mike_corpJonathan
5 years agoAlthough extra work space is valuable, equally you don’t want to make the kitchen storage or island smaller in a house of this size.
After further consideration I wonder if the new kitchen is going to be a disappointment considering the current kitchen is bigger and you are making it smaller to add new stairs so that you can store a bike under the current stairs..... it seems an expensive solution to bike storage.
Perhaps you don’t need to build the new stairs. You could put a round dining table in the library that could also be a poker room but also look at the basement level to see if with a wet bar down there would also be a good homework or poker space. There may also be some economies of this plan as the original plan looked like most basement level walls were being removed but some could in fact stay.
diva636 thanked Jonathanminnie101
5 years agoI've got a similar house in that it's across 4 floors so agree an laundry upstairs would be great! I have to say my main disappointment with my layout is the kitchen size so I would agree with Jonathan's suggestion although I like your plans. Personally though I might incorporate drinks with larder storage across that whole back wall. I know it's a trek to the larder but you could store things used frequently such as spices and oils etc in the main kitchen run. I might also enlarge the pantry fractionally so you can use that instead for storage. It's probably not in a perfect position but it does at least give you storage on that floor. I'm not sure it's feasible with the dimensions but the other thing I'd want is access from the hall for carrying shopping through.
Is the table tennis a must as it takes up a lot of space? We've got a pool table which now gets used 6 times a year at best.. could you have an outdoor one? I'd put a round table where it is with comfy chairs, the kids can use it for arts and crafts (maybe consider wipeable leather chairs), you can also use it for socialising by the bar and family games, plus obviously as a poker table. I'd just opt for under counter fridges so you can have shelves the whole way across for glasses and drinks. I'd then have a larger L shaped sofa (bed) for movies. I don't know what you're considering for lighting (agree with minipie, not sure how effective the planned void would be, what are the wall and stairs construction?) but a mirrored wall should help. We only did a cheap basement "conversion" but my main errors, although there were a few (!), was the measuring of the stairs (we had to take up part of the patio to get the sofa through a lightwell...) and I should have included sound insulation in the ceiling.
diva636 thanked minnie101diva636
5 years agoThanks again everyone, much food for thought.
Minipie and Jonathon, we did originally plan to put an extra sleeping area in the basement or even make it a separate studio for renting out, but actually, there are 7 bedrooms upstairs and we decided to enjoy our house for ourselves rather than try and eek an income out of it. We figured the kids would use the basement for sleepovers, hence the bathroom down there. Instead of a pull down bed, we thought we'd buy a sofa bed for the cinema room area.
Mike_corp - thanks for your input, where did you envisage entering the kitchen from? Ideally we'd like traffic to go down the hallway and enter from there rather than going through the front room. Def like the idea of combining pantry and 'muddy' room, but not sure about having all my laundry in there as well.
Jonathon - re this being an expensive way of achieving bike storage I take your point.. but we couldn't come up with an alternative. The middle room is quite dark and so dining in there just won't happen as everyone stays in the kitchen where there's a nice view to the garden. A round table could be there for other uses but we'd still need dining in the kitchen. On the plans you attached, would the entrance to the kitchen be via the front room?I'm liking the pantry and guest WC/bikes areas though, have to check to see if the sizes work.
What's a 'wet bar'?! And yes, definitely agree a poker space downstairs would be great.
Minnie101 - thanks for your comments, and nice to hear from someone juggling 4 floors as well! Table tennis is a definite, kids and dad obsessed. We could always fold it up when not in use though.Access from the hall is definitely a requirement, I'm aiming to keep the footfall out of 'my' front room;)
The wall and stairs construction for the new stairs was going to be crittall style, like these although not remotely as big or spacious. I love that mirrored wall though, I'd like something like that in the hallway if it does involve a left turn in to the kitchen so you're not walking towards a 'dead-end'.
Jonathan
5 years agoEven if the middle room is dark I think you can make a great room in there and make it feel really intimate. But by deleting the new stairs to the lower level you do gain more space for the kitchen- and there would be plenty of room to include a table.
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5 years agoI was referring to the floorplan in your question ;-). This one:
diva636
5 years agoSo the objective was to achieve a few keys things with our ground floor refurb: coat/shoe storage room, WC, bike storage and pantry/utility (spare freezer, place for mop, hoover..).
If we eliminate the proposed staircase in the kitchen this certainly opens up a few options, although this does compromise the entrance to the basement which currently is via a steep and narrow staircase.
Taking on board everything we've cut and pasted the floor plan to death and come up with this arrangement. Measurements are not accurate.
I'm not sure about the small WC in the far corner the kitchen but it allows us to have bike storage with full head height as well as a cloakroom on the opposite side.
With the WC and pantry creating a short corridor, my question is do you think this works better and where would you put a door?
Jonathan
5 years agoAlternative idea.
Personally I think the pantry plan eats up too much space and built in pantry unit and a built in freezer help the space feel bigger.
diva636 thanked Jonathanminnie101
5 years agoIt has to be a design that works for you at the end of the day but I think I prefer the first layout option tbh. If the bikes fit under the stairs and are easy to access then I would just swap the wc and dressing around. I think the island needs to be pushed back as there's not enough distance between the DW and main run. I'd also move the sink over so you've got space for stacking and include a bin the other side of the sink. I'd also swap the fridge and oven around so the kids aren't trying to get in the fridge for stuff whilst you're using the oven.
I do prefer the new living room layout (but with door opening into the living room) as the sofa position works better with the window seat. Personally though I'd just have velvet stools for extra seating where you've got the chairs and instead would have a chair in front of the shelves angled towards the sofa.
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