Extension - is a project manager required or just a builder?

3 years ago

Hello Houzzers

My daughter and son-in-law are considering a rear extension to enlarge the kitchen and create a utility room. It is a sloping site and will be L shaped.

We thought you just got quotes from 3 local builders and off you went with your chosen one (subject to planning etc) The son-in-law is talking of architects and a project manager but it's just a suburban 1970's detached house.

Your advice please hello Houzz members.

Thanks

Sally

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ksk_maddox
Original Author

3 years ago

Hi Angie, thank you. We do want to 'preserve the relationship' but as parents we are older and wiser (usually). They bought a house that neither set of parents would've touched with a bargepole but hey ho......it's their money.

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Comments (14)

Sonia
3 years ago
Depends how experienced your builder is. For example my brother has been a builder for 30 years and recently a lot of it has been project managing. He is brilliant at sorting the order of works and getting all the trades in (plumber, plasterer, electrician etc) at the right time. He’s also really good at sorting out issues that may arise such as plans not being that accurate, it happens! You will need someone to run it, unless you want to attempt it yourself.
ksk_maddox thanked Sonia
Daisy England
3 years ago
I’m in agreement with Sonia. We regularly do this kind of work and hubby oversees it all and acts as the Project Manager. Look for a builder with the relevant experience. Do not be afraid to ask them. You will need an architect as someone qualified needs to compile the drawings for Council submission.
ksk_maddox thanked Daisy England
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Hi Gus, we are mid side return build currently and had exactly your dilemma last year when we were talking about the work we wanted to do. Ultimately we figured it came down to whether we were willing to pay to avoid the project management & associated stress! So we had a number of ‘design & build’ companies come to visit, talk over and quote for the work, in addition to working out costs of managing the various components separately. After breaking down all the moving parts (architect, structural engineer, party wall surveyor, planning application, builder, plumber, electrician, plasterer, tiler, building control, drainage, tree survey - off the top of my head!) we opted to go with a D&B (project management) company to carry out & coordinate everything for us. Our reasoning included: they have experience, can anticipate things we probably wouldn’t even consider or know about, have access to all the trades, can put a team together which suited our timeline, can coordinate all the trades (and know when to!) at the relevant times, they do it full time (rather than us working at the same time), etc... So in short, it boils down to whether you want to pay for someone to take care of things for you! After we did a number of the elements for our wedding and wishing after the fact we’d just paid to not have to deal with it - we took that on board for this somewhat larger project and went with a D&B company. So far so good.... fingers crossed it remains this way!
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Thanks Jonathan, good to hear that our budget doesn't sound way off! We know we're in a pricier part of the country, but have been shocked at the quotes received so far. I didn't think our design was that elaborate! We have one steel where we are opening up the back of the house to push the kitchen out, plus a vaulted ceiling there with a couple of Velux windows. Our plan includes a couple of new french doors, but not bifolds or anything, so no major glazing costs. One things that could push costs up is our extension roof as its a slightly odd design (flattened a bit at the apex) due to jobsworth planning officer. We were also hoping to have it vaulted with one Velux, so there may be costs there with insulation, wiring, beams etc, although the engineer didn't think a ridge steel was necessary. There are no major plot limitations or access issues. We do need our existing tandem garage demolishing, plus removal of possible asbestos roof and moving the manhole to the new side passage. We also know that one corner of our new kitchen will need deeper foundations due to our leylandii hedge (which we'll probably remove at some point anyway!) - we've already had a fruit tree removed so it didn't impact the other side of the foundations. We have also asked for under-floor heating in the kitchen and know that we'll need to move/replace our boiler and possibly have a new consumer unit. We also asked them to quote for a couple of "extra" bits, like replacing the existing ancient front windows to match new ones, refitting current family bathroom, and stripping out some ugly wood cladding in the hallway. So I guess there are some issues and extras there which we need to explore further..... but we thought we had allowed for some of them by setting our budget around £100k and holding £50k back for spec decisions and unforeseen bits and bobs. We will definitely be speaking to the first builder who quoted £155k ex kitchen and bathrooms, as his quote was the most thorough and we had a good feeling about him. I think perhaps there can be some further discussion with him around costings and where we could make savings (or put things off until a later date). We were keen to get all quotes in before entering discussions, but the remaining two are taking an age.......
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There are lots of knowledgeable people on here who could advise on layout of you post a floor plan with measurements. Are you in a conservation area? You would need planning permission if so. If you are removing structural walls you would need a structural engineer to do calculations. And these, together with drawings would go into your council for building warrant. I don't think you need an architect. Builders should be able to quote you based in the above.
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Well as you can imagine, work stopped a few weeks ago. I've managed to get some supplies delivered so I'm doing the DIY bits. I'm currently boarding out the dining room ceiling to slightly lower it and to install downlights. The wiring and boarding should be done well before my builder us allowed back. Then I have to source the kitchen all over again!
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kwg kwg
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
I guess it depends on how big/complicated the project is, how much budget they have to employ a project manager, how busy your daughter and son in law are - if they always working away from home regulary, perhaps they may want someone to project manage it from their side however usually the builder/ building company will project manage all the trade people as they will sign a contract with the builder to get the project completed within the specified timeframe.

As Daisy England said, don't be afraid to ask questions, ask as many questions as possible even if they sound 'simple'.

Different builders/companies have their own way of working e.g. some have teams, some employ contractors to do each trade, is there a foreman working every day at the site and overseeing the other work men or will the foreman only be around a few hours a day etc. Once they have all the information, they can see what works best for them.

Yes you definitely need an architect to submit plans to council and also for the builder to work with
ksk_maddox thanked kwg kwg
ksk_maddox
Original Author
3 years ago
This is all what we were thinking. I think the s-in-l has had his head turned by a friend who just happens to be a project manager! It's just a regular local home which will have a local builder. It's not Grand Designs.
HU-840414730
3 years ago
You should definitely get an architect to keep an eye on things. Once you start renovating/extending, you never know what unforeseen problems you'll meet. Then suss out a good builder whose work you should look at before you start,even if it is a small project. I'm in the same boat and have been advised about getting an architect.Best of luck. Olive
ksk_maddox thanked HU-840414730
Angie
3 years ago
We’re adding a small extension to our home and have engaged a project management company. Their architects have drawn up the plans and they’ve handled planning for us. We’ve now asked them to specify the works and get builders’ quotes and then oversee the work, incl building control. It’ll cost us more, and hubby is retired, but it’s a level of hassle we can do without. And we’re in the fortunate position of being able to afford it!
In my experience, leaving the son in law to do things his way is generally best, although no harm in sharing your thoughts initially. Protecting the relationship is, to me, more important than the method they use. Hopefully they’ll have the result they want however they do it.
Angie
ksk_maddox thanked Angie
Rowland
3 years ago
hi Ksk,

I think it all depends on how you want your job managed. Not all builders are the same. The majority are fair and honest, but there are always the ones who are good at managing a client to get more money through additional works and pricing this work at unreasonable prices.

A project manager can cut through this and may save you money in guiding you through the process of choosing finishes and suggesting things that may minimise costs on building.

It is always surprising to me that people pay for advise on their gym exercise routine and yet leave themselves to run a complex process such as construction.

it is the hidden stuff that is important and when the builder has left you then have to live with the consequences.

I would always recommend the money spent on a professional personal to represent and manage your interests on site. That way you can be left with proper reporting and managed cost increases rather than a builder confronting you with claims for additional work that is not priced properly. A PM will make sure you pay only for work completed to date and avoid the front loading of a job that often leaves homeowners high and dry with an unfinished project and an absent builder.

best

Rowland
ksk_maddox thanked Rowland
ksk_maddox
Original Author
3 years ago
Hi Rowland, do you know how much project managers charge please? I think I'm worried it'll be a huge fee like on Grand Designs. They will use a reputable local builder. We are in a town, not a city, all the tradesmen are well known and respected.
Sonia
3 years ago
Are you a Project Manager by any chance Rowland?
Rowland
3 years ago
Hi Sonia,

I am a surveyor and have experience as a builder, PM and Designer. A bit of a Jack of all!! I do have professional qualifications, technical qualifications and too much experience in the field!! certainly not trying to push use of a professional, but it does help to reduce costs and maintain quality!
Sonia
3 years ago
Good to hear Rowland. So you’re going to be our go to man for any building techie stuff? 😂. We really need people like you on Houzz! My knowledge comes from my brother who is a builder. He started as a bricklayer and over the years his experience has grown and grown. He now mostly does project managing. I am in awe of him and His knowledge - no problem is unsolvable! He too finds ways to reduce costs for his customer where possible. 👍
PRO
Magic Projects London Ltd
3 years ago
Hi Sally, From experience, we understand how important is to manage every project. It requires someone experienced in this field. If your daughter is thinking of managing the project herself, it can lead to many issues on the way which will cost them more money at the end. Appointing a professional building company with management is crucial. I believe every professional building company has one PM on the team. At least we do :)

Every of our project has a designated project manager, this is something we always do. Some of our projects are overlooked by architects, depends on the scale and the clients' requirements and that is very beneficial too. But we have completed many projects where we managed all from the very beginning to the end.

Please always sign the contract with the builders and make sure they have included everything in the quote so the price does not go up every 2 weeks. Of course, some additional work might arise, but that is something you can agree to or not do. Also, don't forget to ask for their Liability Insurance.

It is good to visit some of their previous clients and ongoing projects.
ksk_maddox thanked Magic Projects London Ltd
PRO
Absolute Project Management
3 years ago
Some articles that might help;

Houzz article about the costs and benefits of working with a PM https://www.houzz.co.uk/magazine/how-much-does-it-cost-to-hire-a-project-manager-stsetivw-vs~132004820

... and if you opt to manage it yourself, here's our advice on how to avoid problems (or manage them when they come up); https://absoluteprojectmanagement.com/preventing-problems-during-renovation/
ksk_maddox thanked Absolute Project Management

Extension - is a project manager required or just a builder?

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