Paul,

No I did not.

Good luck!

Do you have any leftover, uninstalled pieces to compare with the installation? I was wondering whether it might be a defect in the actual flooring.

It’s not.

Because Karndean is so thin, ir telegraphs any imperfection below it. The subfloor must be prepped perfecttly and the underlayment installed perfectly.

My question:

Would you accept this install?

"Would you accept this install?" .... hmm. It depends. If I paid $5/sf for SUBFLOOR PREP...then "No. I would not." The reason: this is the subfloor, not the Karndean. If I paid $0.50/sf for subfloor prep, then "Yes. I have to. I didn't pay enough for subfloor prep."

The Underlayment was installed properly for LAMINATE or a RIGID vinyl plank like CoreTec. It was NOT installed properly for thin (less than 8mm thick) vinyl planks like Karndean.

The subfloor surface *SHOULD have been coated in Self Leveling Compound (SLC) or Feather Compound. The seams would have been carefully prepared when this coating was applied. And then a light sanding + vacuum + lightly damp clothe as a "tack clothe" to get rid of all the fine dust. Allow to dry.

Now the Karndean can be laid/glued. As described above, that type of underlayment prep is another $2/sf ON TOP OF the materials (birch ply + staples + SLC).

This is lack of subfloor preparation. And the subfloor preparation is dictate by the PRICE paid for that level of "perfection". The price you paid will tell you if you are to "accept this" or not.

Thank you. I understand you get what you pay for.

However, I also understand as a consumer the flooring company should not “sell” me a floor prep that is not appropriate for the product. And Karndean should not approve a prep that doesn’t work for their product.

The installers say they installed it to Karndean spec.

That type of floor prep you describe was not done, whether or not I paid for it is a mute point, as the flooring professional should have recommended and charged me for the proper floor prep. I am not the professional. I did due diligence making sure they were following Jarndean instructions.

They sanded the subfloor seams back and forth and back and forth. I believe the high grit sander created grooves in the subfloor which the 1/4” birch underlayment and then the thin Karndean planks followed up and down up and down.

They only added a leveling compound on the obvious areas of the floor that needed it. But not on the grooves they inadvertently created across the seams.

Karndean install instruction does not say to put a self leveler across the whole plywood subfloor and then add 1/4”. It only says to put 1/4” underlayment over the subfloor.

Karndean instructions are for installers who follow "Best Practices" for resilient flooring (such as sheet vinyl, sheet linoleum, glue down cork, VCT, LVC, LVP, etc). The instructions are clear (if the installer read them and KNOWS what is "Best Practices"): https://www.karndean.com/~/media/karndean/downloads/pdfs/commercial/installation/usa_ca_commercialinstallationguide.ashx

"All substrates must be clean, smooth, dry and free of waxes, existing adhesives, dirt, dust, grease, oil, paint, curing compounds or sealers.

The "smooth" is part of it. The staple indents are NOT smooth. Therefore they did NOT follow instructions. And the leveler goes on TOP of what they added!!! Not below. The birch plywood they put down needs to be SMOOTH AND FLAT. The seams need to be filled and ALL THE STAPLES need to be patched and then sanded smooth. This is the TOP...not the bottom.

As for the "moot point" of not giving you what is needed, it is in fact the heart of the matter. Believe it or not, MOST companies are getting TIRED of people "price shopping" for installation prices. So, they do NOT show the REAL price for prep. They show an average price and HOPE that it works.

Many times it works....other times it does NOT. This time it DID NOT.

If you look further down the page on the Karndean installation instructions you will see this:

Subfloor Preparation

Do not use a fan pointed directly at a patch or adhesive to

speed up dry time. This does not allow the patch or adhesive

to cure properly, resulting in improper adhesion and low PSI

of the patch. A fan may be used to increase air movement by

directing the fan towards the ceiling or above the floor which

can speed up dry times without adverse effects on the curing.

Always fasten underlayment panels in accordance with the

manufacturer’s recommendations, as any failure of the

underlayment or Karndean Designflooring product as a

result of the underlayment is the responsibility of the

underlayment manufacturer. In all cases, the underlayment

manufacturer or underlayment installer is responsible for

all underlayment warranties.

I

I've highlighted the relevant spots. "Patch" refers to cement patch. Which can be called Self Leveling Compound or Feather Compound. That's the stuff you spread over the fasteners....to create SMOOTH.

At this point, you can get some money back (check to see that your contract specifically states the subfloor will be to Karndean specifications) or you can have the entire thing ripped out and the skim coat/patch applied and they try again.

I'm sorry but there is no other fix. The underlayment was not done to Karndean specifications. Your price for subfloor prep probably wasn't enough. Make sure your contract specifically states it will be done to Karndean specifications. That's the only thing that will give you the ability to go after them in any way, shape or form.

It turns out the staples were NOT the problem.

it was the high grit sanding of the subfloor seams that created indentations.

Nothing in the Karndean installation instructions explicitly state to put a leveling skim coat on top of the 1/4” birch.

The installer was a certified Karndean installer.

The Karndean inspector post install said it was installed to spec.

I'm sorry this has happened...but the SMOOTH and FLAT are the most important part of this. If there are indentations, they need to be filled. If there are staple dents, then must be filled. If there are seams between the underlayment panels, they must be filled. To "fill" thousands of staple dents and dozens of seams, the "logical" way to do this is to coat the ENTIRE THING with SLC. Of course, that doesn't mean it *has to be done that way.

The people with ++++time on their hands will take a putty knife and a bucket of SLC/Feather/Patch material and "fill" each individual dimple/dent - by hand...probably on hands and knees. This rarely happens with professionals. DIYers are more known for this approach.

No matter how it is done - it doesn't matter. So long as it IS DONE....that's what counts. Smooth and Flat. Like a skating rink. This is what is needed for flexible vinyl planks laid over new underlayment that has been stapled in place.

You are welcome to reach out to an independent flooring inspector. The cost is $250 - $700 (or so). You will pay the inspector and they will write a detailed report as to why the floor looks the way it does.

You can then use the independent inspector's report to fight for a new install - with properly prepared subfloor. And I know that it doesn't "say" 'coat entire thing in cement' but the CONCEPT of SMOOTH AND FLAT means "like a skating rink". And the best way to achieve that = coat the entire thing in SLC.

And the "certified" Karndean installer could be in SERIOUS trouble if that is their level of competence.

Good to know! Thank you!

everyone from the Karndean rep to the underlayment rep said “proper install to spec”

i did hire an independent inspector. His report was incredibly vague.

However, the flooring company did decide to rip the whole thing out for me and refund my money. It wasn’t until it was all torn out that it was revealed that sanding groves were created. If it weren’t for this, it would have been fine, even without SLC. And if it weren’t for ripping it out all the way, I wouldn’t have realized it was from sanding grooves and not underlayment stapling. No one from the installer to the inspector will recognize that it’s the sanding grooves. The installer won’t because he denies any wrong doing (thankfully, they are reputable and value satisfied customers). The inspector won’t I assume be ause his report “guessed” that it was the stapling pattern.

Anyway, now I’m back at square one. Except with the addition of sanding grooves.

This was a reputable certified Karndean installer. Based on my experience with the product, the vague install instructions, and lack of support from the Karndean rep, I would not recommend Karndean as a product.

Here is a photo during installation of the underlayment. You can see the sanding grooves correlate to the areas of the installed floor that were wavy.

Here is an area they used dry dex or Ardex filler. Note the fan.

We put Karndean Art Select LVT in our new house last year, and it looked exactly like yours. Wavy and rippling all over With the addition of prominent ridges where the 1/4 plywood underlay wasn’t level enough or quickly worked its way up. But my husband installed it so we had no one to blame. It also scratched very easily. We didn’t love it but felt like we were stuck with it.

We had a fire in our house about 6 weeks ago and had to tear out all the karndean......and we are replacing it with hardwood.

Thank you for sharing your feedback. I’m so sorry about the fire!

I’ll update what I decide to do eventually.

Very educational thread. Thanks.