Aga's clearance question !?!

10 years ago

Hi - I had a dilemma the other day ... I was drawing a kitchen design and the client wanted an Aga (with add on) with a wooden mantel over the top - so I drew it like I aways would - so that the Aga had the 610mm clearance left and right and so that the clearance above was 760mm and not projecting further than 330mm - They didn't like that look and wanted it closer, lower and projecting over further out ! So I dug out the Aga installation clearances of combustible cabinets page on Aga design manual PDF from their website and showed them that how I'd drawn it followed the Aga guidelines - they changed their minds to a freestanding hood. It was all very amicable and not a problem .
... but it got me wondering - as looking on the Aga website, almost every photo is flouting those guidelines ?! Which got me wondering ?! Is this information correct ?!
The design manual seems correct to me - and logical - an Aga is a constant heat source ?! I've been giving them that much room in my designs for the last 29 years !! But am interested to know what others here think ?! Have they changed the rules !?!
Or are all the photos just to look good - ( won't look good if they go up in smoke !!) I appreciate your thoughts ! Thanks !

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Tim Wood Limited

10 years ago

I don't know where you are?

We have designed, made and installed quite a number of kitchens with Aga's over the years. Always speak to who ever is suppling and installing it, they will normally do a survey - arrange to be their when they do and ask all your questions. The heat source can make a massive difference to what you can and cannot do. If electric you have far more choice.
If the Aga or furniture around it does not work - then the kitchen will not! So speak directly to the local Aga representative doing the work.

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Comments (54)

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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
thank you all for your interest and comments ... I am happy that I made the right judgement call on this one - and happy that the client flowed my suggestion to have a free standing hood instead ... my consern is that maybe others in the future won't ?! my client rang thier local Aga supplier who added to the confusion by stating the distance to left and right was 61mm ( vastly different to 610mm ) and so added to the confusion ! I have emailed Aga to ask for confirmation .... I will let you know what they say !!
I'm in UK - for reference - by the way !!!
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
Adding the top part to clarify D and EF points
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
Oh and Fred - to clarify - I was typing an Aga is a constant heat source ?! As in - it's a constant heat source and therefore needs adequate space - not as in 'is it a constant heat source ?' Can be read either way - sorry my bad for not making it clear !! But yes I'm well aware that they are constantly warm - it's part of their charm !!!!
User
10 years ago
Look on page 36 here.
http://www.aga-ranges.com/media/237894/installation_and_user_guide_legacy_44.pdf

UK may have some different measurements, as does Canada Vs US
http://www.aga-ranges.com/products/aga-ranges/aga-legacy-44-dual-fuel-range.aspx?tab=2
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User
10 years ago
I thought I was reading that wrong. :)
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
Hi Fred ! Thanks - that's for a dual fuel which is slightly different - but interestingly the only difference I noted was the distance D which was 75mm ( but that wasn't to a combustible cabinet side ?! ) have screen shot it to add below !
User
10 years ago
Yes, I am not sure if I am just missing where you mention the model, or if it got lost in the mail ;)
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
I didn't mention it to be fair Fred !! As nearly all Aga's over here tend be be oil - so it's sort of assumed when you mention AGA ! That said though - there are more duel fuel ones filtering through now ! You can get solid fuel ones too - but they seem to be only in really old properties ! Most of the Aga's that have had designs around have been in country houses... But did have one recently that was gas !
User
10 years ago
Well, at least you now know they don't ALL have the same guidelines. Lol
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
The funny this is - that as a gas appliance the recommend distance is 150mm clearance by the powers that be in the world of gas safety not 75mm ! So even that would throw up some questions if you installed it at 75mm not 150mm !!
User
10 years ago
And I learned that there really is a difference between a cooker and a range. At least according to AGA. I thought it was like the difference between a bonnet and a hood.
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks for looking over this with me !! I'm glad you gleaned something from it too !
User
10 years ago
But, I am still trying to figure out if a boot is a trunk :) and if these AGA things are so special, then why is English food so boring?
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
Lol !! It's because we English are boring, erm I mean reserved !!! Lol !! Our national dish is a constant battle between fish and chips and takeout curry !!!!! ( neither of which appeal to me much !).
PRO
Tim Wood Limited
10 years ago
Worth discussing with Aga - if you are having an extractor hood above - gas and oil fired Aga's require a balanced flue!

Also look at the height Aga's normally need to be raised to be at an optimum height. Either build a plinth with capping in front of the Aga or for extra Aga supply one that can match the Aga colour.

The electric Aga although more expensive, especially with AIMS can in the long term be the cheapest due to running costs. Get your client to discuss their life style with Aga to ascertain the best for them. Also the electric one can be placed almost anywhere, as it does not have a flue.

Leave a space at the back equivalent to any panel/tiles or whatever you may place there's depth. Remember the back of the Aga wall is hard to clean/reach and will attract a fair amount of grease and dirt, so should be made easy to clean.

We generally leave a 100mm gap between the Aga and our units and place a board of asbestolux on the outer unit sides near the Aga. Then bring the front faces/scribe sides to within 5mm of the Aga front/sides.

Speak to Aga, put all you are doing on email so you have a record of their guidance. They are a large company and it's worth making sure they are happy and then your client will be.
OnePlan thanked Tim Wood Limited
User
10 years ago
I figured I would get a smart comment from chook by now, but apparently she just lurked a bit. People around here still look at me funny when I put malt vinegar on my fries instead of ketchup. I tell them they are chips, but that doesn't seem to help.
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shelleyuk
10 years ago
Chips aren't chips without vinegar. Particularly good when the chips go a bit mushy from the vinegar! We like Agas Fred because its so blooming wet and freezing cold here.
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
thanks too Tim ! as I'm just on the design side - I don't usually get into the nitty gritty with the installers - it usually all happens miles away - I don't even usually do a site visit ! all email driven you see ! I too, usually allow some sort of service cupboard - so you can get to the controls involving a good air gap !
- good idea about the lining though - and useful reminder about the flue - this one is not ducted - a recycling air one ... and the aga is already insitu !
shelleyuk
10 years ago
They can be a bit of a status thing too because most people can't afford to run them. The cost of fuel here is ridiculous.
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User
10 years ago
So, is your original question; why do all the oil burning AGA units all have the same clearances regardless of how many BTU/KW they put out, and how big they are?
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
no it was more simple than that - it was is this drawing wrong or are the photos wrong - lots if photos show AGA's with flammable mantels in close proximity !!
User
10 years ago
Oh! The photos on the AGA website? Must be the Brit version, or I'm not looking hard enough. I keep getting on the photo comments on houzz to tell people to not believe the photos. They always have code violations.
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
the Plot thickens !! this is the question I put to the AGA people - it's quite nondescript - no mention of which type of appliance even ... "Can you tell me the safe distance's for combustible wooden cooker hood and mantle design should be around an Aga . Thank you !"
my email was then passed from Retail support, to a technical adviser - who replied to my email ( with all the other emails and email addresses still tagged on ! lol ) who said simply this "Karen we would advise a minimum of 25mm to either side and a minimum of 650 mm above the appliance.
Regards"
so no question of which appliance - no mention of any limits on projection either !!! so that is totally different to what their info PDF states !!
User
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
That doesn't surprise me. More than one manufacturer of ranges technical advisors in the US don't seem to understand the difference in their installation instructions between a non-combustible wall assembly and a non-combustible surface like tile either. Their pro style, high BTU ranges say they need the heat shield risers if the back wall is made of combustible material. The UL listing made them write it that way, and the IRC explains the distinction, but apparently, they have amnesia when asked about it and keep telling people that tile directly over wood is just fine. Also, most range hood companies in the US still deny knowing the existence of a make-up air requirement for hoods over 400 cfm when asked.
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Tim Wood Limited
10 years ago
Phone them ask to speak to an Aga surveyor, then put all you have discussed in writing. Most of the sales people have no idea at all of anything technical. If you get it wrong it will be a nightmare! If necessary speak to Aga HQ.
OnePlan thanked Tim Wood Limited
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
Tim - that was a technical advisor from AGA Telford !!! that is why I'm so shocked !! i agree it would be easier to phone - but A. I wanted it in writing and B. I can't speak anymore ! so the mystery continues !!
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
so I sent this email to double check ...

"hi - thanks for your reply Xxxxxx-
I'm amazed, as I thought it was 610mm left to right - 760 above and projecting no more than 330mm ?!
so what you said is totally safe and within UK guidelines for installation of an AGA - be that oil fuel - solid fuel or dual fuel ?!?
I'm just double checking ?!
sorry to be a pain ? but I don't want to design a mantel that will be a fire hazard !
kind regards "

and he sent back this ....
'No problem Karen , the appliance is heavily insulated and there are no exposed flame sources on the appliance , so we don't have the same constraints as a flue less cooking appliance , such as a built in gas hob or free standing gas cooker.
All the best'
bubblyjock
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
It's not actually up to Aga how far the flue, etc, are from (non)combustible surfaces - that's all determined by local Building Codes, so whatever it says in their brochure for whichever country is simply their recommended clearance, and doesn't necessarily meet local codes (as we discovered with our own installation).

And, for the record (tongue firmly in cheek here), if your clients are using an Aga properly, i.e. barely using the hobs for much more than boiling the kettle (even spaghetti cooks happily with the lid on in a hot, not boiling, pan), but cooking in the ovens, they really don't need a range hood! The two hot ovens exhaust straight up the flue, as does the exhaust from combustion, whether oil, gas, etc. Aga don't make solid-fuel burning cookers any more, although there are still a few kicking around. There was a 2oven model made under licence by Heartland in N America for a while, but not any more.
OnePlan thanked bubblyjock
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
thanks Bubbly !! it's been an epic - but as I have it in writing now and even confirmed - I'm happy !! I bet it smells lovely in your home on baking days !! my Neighbour still has an old wood burning AGA ! it's fab !! we had Christmas dinner there a couple of years ago - there was about 30 of us !! the AGA was tremendous !!! I do want one - but they just eat too much money over here !! so I have a delightful Falcon instead !!
User
10 years ago
Sounds like they are blowing smoke up your skirt. If it is that heavily insulated, then all the heat goes up the chimney and they would be a futile attempt at heating anything. So, what good are these things? Let's recap. Cost too much to use, inefficient, nothing good tasting ever comes out of them, and all you should use it for is a place to put your tea kettle. :D
So, now I know that the UK does things backward, but in the US or Canada, that statement by AGA would never fly.

Sample wording of IRC. NEC says essentially the same thing;
R102.4 Referenced codes and standards.
The codes and standards referenced in this code shall be considered part of the requirements of this code to the prescribed extent of each such reference and as further regulated in Sections R102.4.1 and R102.4.2.

Exception: Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer’s instructions shall apply.

The NEC and the IRC are installation standards and not a product standards. The product standard would not allow the product to be used in a manner that conflicts with the listing instructions, & installation instructions. What the installation instructions say is governed by written standards by UL or other standards. If the language is not proper in the installation instructions, the product does not get labeled. The listing and labeling can be different for different intended uses of the same product.

In other words, you must install the product to the most stringent standard or code and need to look at all of them. In the US, the big 3 are UL, NEC, and IRC.
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
geeeeepers !!
bubblyjock
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Fred - feel free to read the small print available from Aga before spouting forth. Agas have been legally installed all over the world for nearly 100 years, meeting every building code or safety requirement along the way.

ETA, Agas were designed specifically to be a safer cooking appliance. Stories abound about their utility, safe cooking, and longevity, and I'm sure you can google for more, but here's one to get you started:

http://blogs.abc.net.au/theoverflow/2011/04/the-aga-saga.html
OnePlan thanked bubblyjock
User
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
I did read the fine print, and in the US, appliances have to be installed with the clearances provided on the printed installation instructions that were mandated by UL standards. They cannot print one set of clearances and then turn around and say to disregard them. That would violate the listing of the appliance, and therefore be non code compliant.
AGA will only claim this correspondents as a miscommunication, because 25mm is the suggested clearance for the cabinet below the counter top, not above the counter. It is also not the suggested clearance to a combustible wall because then the doors won't even open.

CODE; "the conditions of the listing and manufacturer’s instructions shall apply."

Not the word of some desk jockey that works for AGA.
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John James O'Brien | Inspired Living, by design
10 years ago
AGAs are cast iron, so retain heat much as an iron skillet does. You wouldn't avoid use of an iron skillet becuase all the heat from the burner just goes up into the air and you needn't avoid an AGA either. That said, the notion of a continuously running appliance is a stretch for the modern, energy conscious buyer. And, it is a rare cook who will shift practices to moving the pan/pot around to the appropriate heat level in the appliance rather than adjusting the burner beneath the pot/pan. And, though I have not tested this, I can't see giving up my dryer in favour of AGAs idea of "ironed" smalls on the burner covers! All that said, in the right high ceiling-ed, heritage windowed house--I'd love an AGA. They modernized with hobs/ranges that are not at all the traditional AGA to accommodate the market place. This may cause confusion in specs as the traditional versus modern AGAs have quite different requirements.
OnePlan thanked John James O'Brien | Inspired Living, by design
bubblyjock
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
Oh dear, Fred, I fear I hit a nerve with you, but the link you gave is for an Aga Legacy, an entirely different machine from the Aga cooker that One Plan is asking about, and you used the N American website, not the UK one (there are differences), so I thought perhaps something got lost in translation along the way for you. My profuse apologies if you became confused and your feelings were hurt.

I'm thrilled that you made the presumptuous leap that I must work for Aga. I do not, but I will happily take your jab as a complement. I own an Aga cooker, and grew up in a country where Agas are a way of life for many, so I'm pretty used to them, that's all!
OnePlan thanked bubblyjock
User
10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago
The link I gave was only to show that the numbers do change for models and that they are not just arbitrary numbers. I know there are differences. That is why I posted the actual link.
I am referring to the difference in the written directions that One Plan posted which are the legally binding document, and the word of the supposed technical advisor she emailed and received an entirely different answer from (desk jockey) , not you.
The law says to follow the listing requirements. If they were not required to be followed, nobody would spend the money to list them. So, when someone else tells you it is ok to not follow the listing requirements, it is no different than them telling you it is ok to rob a bank and then thinking their word will protect you from the law. The ONLY thing it will do is get them into trouble right with you. AGA can NOT change the listing and labeling requirements that must be followed, or wave them with an email. It is not within their power. That is why listing agencies have to be government approved INDEPENDENT agencies.
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bubblyjock
10 years ago
Oh, phew! I found the notion of me as desk jockey quite alarming, as I'm no Ruby Walsh!!!
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User
10 years ago
Attention bubblyjock, we need you over at the Cake tins and cake thread, for a minute, for a discussion on haggis. All Scots, please!
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
hope your haggis chat went well ! I can't keep up with Aussie time aswell as US time !! have to get my 8 hours sleep in !!!
... I must admit I agree with Fred that this new, vastly smaller, measurement does contradict AGA's info PDF re installation - and that it probably won't stand up in court if there were a problem down the line - so think I will err on the side of caution and point out that the technical blurb shows it as 'this' - the technical adviser said 'that' - and they need to sign off that that are happy to go with
what ever the design they like, that may well be somewhere in between the two ! ie on your head be it !!
User
10 years ago
Cake tin time is different, each day lasts 24 hrs +.
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bubblyjock
10 years ago
@ OnePlan - when in doubt, leave lots of room, I'd suggest, instead of going really tight to Aga's guidelines. A couple of inches shouldn't make much difference aesthetically, but it *could* make a difference if it ever came to court. I did a quick search last night on stats on fires started by Agas, but couldn't find anything, fbow....

Haggis? Mmmmm nummy! Given me the perfect solution for supper tonight - it's minus 32'C here today, ugh.
OnePlan thanked bubblyjock
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OnePlan
Original Author
10 years ago
about to start another job with an 'Everhot' !! lol ! same scenario !
bubblyjock
10 years ago
Fun! My mum has a Redfyre, and loves it. All these others are at least as good as Agas, and a lot less lbs, aren't they. Aga's the only one available in N America, however, unfortunately.
OnePlan thanked bubblyjock
garnett0
8 years ago
Hi

Glad I found this thread, I too have questioned the clearances the Rayburn/Aga guides say given all their photos show little, if any clearance.

Someone mentioned they had a 100m gap and used a material against the Units.

This is something we have thought of doing and would welcome advise and opinions.

Our Kitchen is going to be very small and we just don't have the room to be able to have a 150mm gap. We are probably going to be able to have 50-75mm. If we used a heat reflective material (think tin foil type material) against the side of the cabinets facing the side of the Rayburn, is this safe?

Our Rayburn is a 216SFW model for info.

Cheers
User
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
I can give you the opinion on clearance reduction as most US codes and testing agencies see it.

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_24_sec007.htm

The short story is that a 1" air gap is required behind the heat shield, and something more substantial than foil.

TABLE G2409.2 (308.2) REDUCTION OF CLEARANCES WITH SPECIFIED FORMS OF PROTECTION

Should give you a good idea of what "should" be an acceptable means of reducing clearance.

Think of it as a double boiler system. If you put a pan directly on the heat, you can burn things very easily. But, if you put one pan inside another with boiling water, then it keeps things from getting too hot.
PRO
OnePlan
Original Author
8 years ago
To save you reading all of the above - this was the advice from Telford - home of Aga UK :
... who said simply this "Karen we would advise a minimum of 25mm to either side and a minimum of 650 mm above the appliance."
PRO
OnePlan
Original Author
8 years ago
Nb. I meant all of the above long thread from start to finish ! Not all of you fab message Fred !
garnett0
8 years ago
Great, thanks!
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Permanex Building Services
8 years ago
I have a question - has anyone converted an oil AGA to gas?
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Morley Stove Company Ltd
3 years ago
We look after London, Essex, Hertfordshire - if you need woodburning Stove advice please get in touch 🔥 (we also have Everhot Range cookers in our showroom)

Aga's clearance question !?!

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