Bulkheads in Shower - Where to stop tiling?

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

Hello there,

We are in the process of tiling the shower in a basement bathroom and have 2 bulkheads which we could not remove.

Trying to figure out where to stop the tile. If it should just stop underneath bulkhead or should it continue onto the actual bulkheads.

Still in the process of finishing tiling both sides to the top.

The problem is that one of the bulkheads extends into the rest of the bathroom so where would you stop the tile?

Let me know your thoughts - photos would be great if you’ve done something like this already!

Thanks so much

Featured Answer

MongoCT

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

"...what is the BEST way to do this shower from scratch with waterproofing etc...."

I think the "best" way to waterproof a shower is with a surface applied membrane. That would be either a foam tile backer board with a membrane on the surface, like USG Durock Foam Board or Schluter's Kerdi Foam Board, or something similar.

Installing cement board on the walls, like regular Durock cement board or Wonderboard, for example, and on the face of the cement board installing a membrane. Membranes that can go over cement board can be sheet membranes (Laticrete Sheet Membrane, Kerdi Sheet Membrane, Nobel Sheet, etc) or they can be liquid membranes (Hydroban Liquid, RedGard, for example). There are others as well.

For the shower pans or floors, each of those systems has a proprietary floor system, usually made up of a proprietary drain and a sloped foam floor tray.

You can use those foam floor systems if you can match or move the existing drain location to the drain location in the system's sloped pan. If the drain location can not easily be matched to the foam tray, then an easy way is to do a deck mud sloped floor, and then use the sheet membrane used on the walls to cover the floor as well.

For what it's worth, when using a foam board with membrane, or a sheet membrane over cement board, you know that the membrane is the appropriate thickness and as long as the seams are properly detailed, all will be well.

When using a liquid membrane, it's up to the installer to get the thickness of the coating correct, and to insure that there are no bubbles or pinholes or thins spots in the membrane.

What it really comes down to is finding an installer who uses one of these systems, who has experience with that system, and who FOLLOWS THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS when installing these systems.

A lot of showers I do are custom sized. Often times I'll use foam board or cement board with sheet membrane over the cement board on the walls, and the floor will be sloped deck mud with sheet membrane over the sloped mud.

[Here's an example[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/kerdi-shower-part-three-dsvw-vd~3906656) from years ago of a shower done with Kerdi sheet membrane over cement board on the walls, and Kerdi sheet membrane over sloped deck mud on the floor. Some of the photos are a bit silly, that's because they were staged for a magazine shoot.

For showers, I personally prefer cement board covered with a sheet membrane or membraned foam board.

It's a bulletproof system. Minimal wetting. A quick drying cycle. Great moisture control.

With all that written? There's nothing wrong with 6-mil poly behind cement board on the walls and on the floor installing a deck mud preslope, a sloped PVC membrane with a clamping drain, and more deck mud to tile upon. There's just more opportunity for moisture to penetrate and to be held in those systems. In this day and age of tighter houses, better moisture control is key. That's why I prefer surface applied membranes.

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Comments (19)

PRO
User
6 years ago
We need some sense of scale as to where they are. Can you superimpose some measurements? And, I don't see any waterproofing, and it looks like the tile is over drywall?
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maddison36
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
The Cook’s Kitchen:

Thanks!

Tile is over waterproofing- Behind the Board and I think some sort of sealer he used.

The bulkhead in the length of shower is 4 feet long and about 11” high. The one over where the shower head is around 5” high by 3 feet long in shower area but extends into the bathroom another 6 feet (so total length 9 feet by only about 5-6” high).

Hope that helps.
0
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Something doesn't add up with theses measurements. i would suggest to look into the reducing boiler cabinet. the room has potential to be better arranged. however as an immediate solution, you can add a glass frame to the window to stop it getting wet all the time. Also if you add a ledge or a shower shelf, then you can put all your shower gels and shampoos on it and not use the window. in the long run, i would suggest simplifying the shower arrangements and install only a shower head (either on the wall or the ceiling), concealed shower valve and a hand shower. this arrangement will streamline the look and you can add some interest by using a black or copper fixtures. tile wise, i would also go with a simple design, easy for the eye. the space is quite small, but there many things in it. it creates a a bit of a chaos. i like these tiles from Tile Mountain. they are slightly reflective, which would help to illuminate the space, by reflecting the light from the window. they are easy to clean and look very good. a combination grey and white, large tiles and mosaic tile would create an interest without being too busy. https://www.tilemountain.co.uk/quartz-tiles.html?p=1 here is a simulation of the room with the tiles and contrasting fixtures. i couldn't figure out the measurement exactly, so this is not an accurate. i hope this helps. good luck.
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millworkman
6 years ago
Is that green board drywall poking thru?
maddison36
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
On bottom. We’ve hired someone to do the shower.
0
User
6 years ago
There appears to be no waterproofing. None of the areas in question are built properly to be covered by tile. This whole thing is a tearout and start over with someone with a clue.
kelvar
6 years ago
Please tell me it's not greenboard behind that beautiful tile. Not to alarm you, but you need to question this immediately. Greenboard is not going to hold up...it's far from adequate.
cpartist
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Your shower is not waterproof and as Sophie said it needs to be redone properly. That is more important than where the tile should go to. The walls should be cement board with waterproofing on top.

Do you have pictures of the steps before the tile went on?
MongoCT
6 years ago
maddison,

As others have mentioned, before any more work is done in the shower have a face-to-face conversation with the tiler. I'll try to list some points to discuss. One thing to understand, is that "this is the way I've always done it" is not a proper response to construction that violates code or TCNA tiling methods.

So, a few points to ponder:

1) Backer board: The backer board that the tile is adhered to appears to be moisture resistant gypsum board, commonly referred to as "greenboard" because of the green paper facing. In your first photo there appears to be bare greenboard on the inside left wall of the niche as well as at the bottom of the niche shower wall.

Tiling directly on gypsum board in a wet area like a shower or tub surround has been a prohibited by building code since 2006. It's only "moisture resistant", not waterproof, and the gypsum core in MR gypsum board tends to break down over time when used as a tile backer board in wet areas like showers.

2) You mentioned "waterproofing" or "some sort of sealer" being used in the wall behind the MR drywall. It's also a code violation to use a Class I or II vapor retarder behind water resistant drywall in a shower or tub surround.

3) Joint Treatment: Visually, it appears that the gypsum board in the shower compartment was taped and mudded with typical joint compound, and the thinset and tile are adhered directly over joint compound. Joint compound is water soluble. With repeated wettings, it'll soften and essentially dissolve. the joints should have been taped with alkali-resistant tape and portland cement based thinset. Since using joint compound in a wet area violates the manufacturers installation instructions and code says to follow the manufacturers installation instructions, that is also a code violation.

4) Thinset coverage: When tiling in a wet area, the goal is to achieve near 100% coverage of thinset between the tile and the tile backer board. The goal is to avoid open voids or channels between the tile and the tile backer board due to moisture. While I can't say how your tiler tiled, or what level of thinset coverage he achieved, I do not see any thinset on the walls or in any of the open grout joints between the tile. He may have backbuttered the entire tile and still achieved near 100% coverage. Or he may have "dotted" or "spotted" the back of the tile with several glops of thinset and then simply pressed the tile against the wall, compressing the dots. Using the "spot" or "dot" installation will not ensure proper thinset coverage in a wet area like a shower.

Setting everything above aside for the moment? Your question about the height of tile on the walls? You need a waterproof surface on the walls up to a minimum of 72" above the floor. If the shower head is high on wall I prefer the tile to go above the shower arm. In your shower, I'd recommend tiling the shower head wall up to the height of the bulkhead. Then carry that height around the other two walls, and consider tiling the bottom of the bulkhead on the back wall.

If the shower has a low ceiling, which it might since the shower arm is fairly close to the ceiling, then you could consider tiling all wall and bulkhead surfaces in the shower. Essentially, everything but the ceiling. If you're nervous about the tile/drywall transition on the shower head wall bulkhead, then tile to the ceiling on the left wall, tile the entire bulkhead on the back wall, and tile the wall up to the bottom of the bulkhead on the shower arm wall.

Sort through the "tile over greenboard" question first. Find out what specific type of board was used and look up the manufacturer's installation instructions for that board, or report back here and someone will help you find the information.

Hope it turns out to be something different and all is well. Good luck.
PRO
Mint tile Minneapolis
6 years ago
Agree w/MongoCT and Millworkman.
0
maddison36
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Thank you so much everyone for your replies.

They have been so helpful. I really appreciate it.

I am going to be getting him to rip everything out. I don’t feel comfortable with what has been done. I don’t want to have any leaks.

As for the bulkheads - I like your idea Mongo and will put it to use once everything is waterproofed and re-tiled.

Once again - this is what is great about this forum. Thank you.

Question: Just to be sure - what is the BEST way to do this shower from scratch with waterproofing etc. Let me know.
PRO
Mint tile Minneapolis
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Agree again with A surface applied membrane build.

Regardless the build you feel comfortable with INSIST on a properlly monitored and drained flood test.
maddison36 thanked Mint tile Minneapolis
maddison36
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Thanks again everyone.

MongoCT- Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time and providing me with all this valuable information.

He’s tearing the tile out as we speak and we will be doing the Schluter system. I feel much better about it now.
cpartist
6 years ago
What was his excuse for not waterproofing the shower? Makes no sense to me.
0
maddison36
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
He said that he discussed this with my general contractor (to use the Schluter system) but nothing was firmly decided.

Then he just decided to do it this way since that’s how they do it when they build new homes...They tile right on it. Hence why people probably need to redo bathrooms.

More of a miscommunication to what should have been done in the first place.

It’s all good .. we caught it in time .. thanks to this forum since I honestly didn’t know much about installing tile in a shower. Lesson learned to do my homework on anything that is being done... I’m usually pretty good at that .. but I guess we trust people too often without second guessing them!!
0
PRO
ACR Kitchen And Bath, LLC
6 years ago
I second Mongo CT. It looks like the lowest bidder won this one. Get someone who knows what they are doing and skip having your job photos on the next installment of "tile fails"...
0
maddison36 thanked ACR Kitchen And Bath, LLC
maddison36
Original Author
6 years ago
Haha ... yes very true!

I think a good lesson is to hire someone who specializes in that skill and not a “jack of all trades” person.
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PRO
ACR Kitchen And Bath, LLC
6 years ago
We use Wedi for all our tiled showers. If you have a local supply house for this product they "should" have good advice and can recommend an installer. I'm not a fan of rubber and concrete and magic paint. There is a lot to go wrong and we ripped a lot of those out in the last 10 years. The concrete rubs the rubber and you get pinholes and then problems. Good luck!
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maddison36 thanked ACR Kitchen And Bath, LLC
maddison36
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks again! :)
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Bulkheads in Shower - Where to stop tiling?

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