no shoe mold how to

4 years ago

Building a new house... really would like to go without a shoe mold on the baseboard... it is different than my builder has ever done it but he finally agreed.

We had planned to do all flooring first... wood and tile... and set cabinets on top... as this is what I believe is the best way to do this?

Now he’s asking to do what he’s always done and install cabinets first and just get a “close fit” with the floors up to the edges of the cabinets.

Cabinet guy is worried about having to place cabinets on top of floors because if he has to level the cabinets he may have an 8th and inch crack between the cabinet and floor... is this always this way or does he just need to be more precise in construction?

What is the correct/best step by step to getting no shoe mold?

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Mark Bischak, Architect

4 years ago

Not knowing all the facts, I usually recommend installing the flooring to the wall, with a small gap if needed, and installing the cabinets on top of the flooring.

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Comments (13)

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Most Valuable Painters
4 years ago
It must truly be hard for the builder to be that exact. I tried to go with no shoe in my house and they ended up scratching the floor near the edge in one room and then we just decided to go with all shoe throughout to match. One mistake can be detrimental.
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How about something like this. Shorten the kitchen and block off door to create a bathroom which should be relatively easy with regards to drains. Take down wall between existing kitchen and lounge and utilize the extended space under stairs for the kitchen diner. Create access to garage from kitchen and use part of garage for utility space. Garage could be extended forward at a later date. Use the current dining room as separate lounge. Also like Math's idea to square off the garden doorway from current lounge to make the back more uniform. You have a good size house so plenty of possibilities but I'm no expert so couldn't help with how much things would cost.
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I wouldn't dream of asking people to take their shoes off. In fact many visitors do it anyway and we end up with shoes littering our very small hallway which frustrates me. I wish they'd take them to their room when staying here! And I really dislike having to go around barefoot in other people's houses. Especially if a hole has appeared in a sock... I understand why people say no shoes, especially with pale carpets, but it's not how we choose to live or to welcome our guests. So now you all know not to invite me round!
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Many thanks for your comments. Getting the kids (& husband...) to at least put their shoes and coat IN the cupboard is already an every day battle. It won’t be at all possible to ask them to put those somewhere else. My shoes and cost are already in my wardrobe to make space; but realistically, I cannot expect them to do the same... I have installed 2 motion-activated lights in the cupboard. However with the coats in the way, it is only partially illuminating the shoes. The main problem is access to the shoes racks. I have seen pull out shoes racks, but it seems to be more for side cupboard of stairs (see pictures). I never saw anything for « front » under stairs cupboard, when coat and shoes are on top of each other. I am happy to rip out and replace this cupboard with something else (eg asking a carpenter for a specific design) if anyone as suggestions/ideas :) I cannot think of any practical solution... :(
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Helen
4 years ago
I had always read that best practice is for cabinets to go OVER the flooring.

I recently did a gut remodel down to the studs and flooring was laid and then cabinets were placed over the flooring. FWIW, flooring is wood but marble in the bathrooms which also have cabinets which were constructed and installed by the same guy.

No one - GC, designer or cabinet maker/installer ever indicated there would be an installation issue by installing over the flooring.
PRO
PPF.
4 years ago
Install cabinets on top of flooring, then install finished toe kick scribing it to the floor.

Or, install blocking on floor. Set cabinets on blocking, butt flooring into blocking and the install toe kick as above.

Or install cabinets on a raised base, install as above.
wdccruise
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Tile first, then cabinets on top. If you ever want to replace the cabinets with other floor-standing or even wall-mounted cabinets, the flooring will all be there. And, of course, the toilet will sit on top of the tile.

I bought simple, 4-1/2" x 5/8" wood (not MDF*) primed, baseboard which I painted, attached to the wall and caulked where the baseboard met the (a) drywall and (b) tile floor. I didn't use any shoe molding which I don't like. I used 4-1/2" baseboard (I would have preferred shorter) because I had to cover up the mess that had been left where I pulled off the original, shorter baseboard (which did, BTW, have a shoe molding). The 5/8" depth assured that spaces between the tile and the wall were covered and hidden by the baseboard.

-- amateur

*I had to special order the simple, modern wood molding from a lumber yard. Home Depot only sold MDF which I'll use outside the bathroom.
Lindsey_CA
4 years ago
"Tile first, then cabinets on top. If you ever want to replace the cabinets with other floor-standing or even wall-mounted cabinets, the flooring will all be there."

People can knock the home reno shows on HGTV all they want, but one of the things Jonathan Scott of Property Brothers said was that the flooring should always be installed first, and then the cabinets, because if you ever remodel, you don't have to worry about replacing the entire flooring. Made sense then, makes sense now.
PRO
Patricia Colwell Consulting
4 years ago
I always install cabinets on top of flooring I even do laminate that way and never had an issue. The problem I find is that most work now is not precision and trim just is there to hide the booboos, sort of the same as the textured walls and ceilings no one had to de perfect drywall. Get some “pros” that know how to do things right.
PRO
HALLETT & Co.
4 years ago
I was just helping a client replace a range- her counters are only 35 1/2” above the floor because the builder put the cabinets in before the tile. Unfortunately the range was designed to be adjusted up but could not go lower than 35 3/4”. There were many tense moments- eventually we trimmed the plastic legs shorter. Don’t do it.
User
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods and the kind of flooring and cabinet construction matters but a shoe molding should not be necessary for new construction.
PRO
Jeffrey R. Grenz, General Contractor
4 years ago
Factory cabinets are built to be installed over finished flooring as most sales are remodel oriented. They also can be installed prior to flooring easily in a kitchen by installing over a sheet of plywood of thickness similar to the finished floor installed thickness. Custom cabinet makers often just build taller toe kick materials to accommodate as there is no corporate bean counter measuring microns of wood usage vs the bonus plan.

Toe kicks can be installed after finish flooring to avoid base shoe. Baseboards installed over finished flooring can be scribed.

How does this work when you replace the kitchen floor? Until recently most kitchen cabinets might stay 30-50 years, outliving several floors. I'm guessing that advice came from the show producer directed by millions in ad dollars.

Most new residential construction in CA, including tract using factory cabinets are cabinet installed first. They'll study processes of cost vs quality finish until it makes sense to change the proven process.
wdccruise
4 years ago
@Jeffrey R. Grenz, General Contractor: "Most new residential construction in CA, including tract using factory cabinets are cabinet installed first."

Sure, that makes sense for the builder whose costs are reduced by having to purchase and install less flooring. But I don't see how it helps a current or future owner who, if he decides to changes his cabinets, discovers that he has to replace an entire room's floor because the flooring material that was installed years before is no longer manufactured and can't be matched.
aprivratsky
Original Author
4 years ago
So I get it for the cabinets that have a toe kick they can be leveled and then the toe kick board set on top of the floor. What about cabinets that have no toe kick and are flush.... how do you prevent seeing a crack if they need to be leveled an done side gaps more than the other?
PRO
Jeffrey R. Grenz, General Contractor
4 years ago
OPs issue: I don't use "1/4 round" but install cabinets first and tile to and/or install my toe kicks and base boards after flooring. Cabinets without toe kicks are also installed and leveled before flooring, and flooring is cut flush (or grouted). An island with custom end panels can have a tall base or piece that matches the panel thickness. Below is effectively a "base shoe" on the flush ends only but these could have been grouted if the end panels were flat.
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@wdccruise To respond …. the issue with installing floors before cabinets vs after is avoiding damage with 5-6 more trades working on top of finished floors (hardwood & vinyl) vs 100 sf of material in a small home. The savings in flooring is negligible vs potential damage and schedule delay. I also want to be able to attach this island to the subfloor, not the finished flooring.

At the custom home level, there are often last minute changes to plumbing & electrical locations that require opening walls and patching, which is easier to do without finished flooring in place.

Which gets changed more often over the life of a home or kitchen.... flooring or cabinets? I'm guessing flooring 3:1 for some of the lighter floors such as engineered hardwoods, vinyl, and LVT.

Builders refine their sequences over decades. Their teams of trades & suppliers work relatively smoothly with this system. A quality on schedule finish reduces costs. When you hire a builder for the whole job, its reasonable to assume they've priced it based on their proven process, not the one a product reseller is pitching in order to sell their product. So when you dictate a change in process after signing a contract, there's going to be some head scratching. Some will agree, some will not. Most of the time it will impact and lengthen the schedule until the turmoil settles.

no shoe mold how to

Mark Bischak, Architect

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Helen

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HALLETT & Co.

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Jeffrey R. Grenz, General Contractor

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